----- Original Message -----From:To: LifeforceSent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 4:55 AMSubject: Re: Gold runs out - BEWARE FAKE GOLD!Do be aware that there are FAKE gold bars and coins on the market with granulated tungsten cores. These cores are the same density as gold and the only way to tell the difference can be to cut the coin or bar in two. This from Yahoo Group coinforgeryebay:Hello CFe
Yesterday I was shown an interesting dated 2000 AD 1/10 ounce AGW
US gold eagle here in my coin shop in Utah.
The diameter was correct. The weight was correct. The thickness
appeared to be correct (I did not measure it). All the details appeAred
quite correct with one exception.
The coin was struck slightly off center on each side. The dies
were slightly smaller than they should have been, but looked very good
in all details.
I did not test for gold content, but it looked like gold to me,
at least on the surface and did not appear to be plate, maybe thick
The woman said she had four more, but thought maybe they had been
stolen. She had no idea of their pedigree, or was not telling. The
slightly under sized dies and being off centered should be a tip the
coin was a counterfeit, however, I suspect it was good enough to pass
coin shops now and then, and more likely yet to pass pawn shops.
It would have been interesting to cut the coin. It really looked
correct to me in thickness, so I am suspicious it might have had a
compressed tungsten granule core.
No gold coins with compressed tungsten granule cores have been
published that I am aware of, though there are rumors of such in
Krugerands. Compressed tungsten granules are about the only way to get
correct density to imitate gold without high cost.
If certain interests in China are marketing fake gold coins now
with compressed tungsten granule cores (which has the same density as
gold), it will soon wreak havoc upon the gold coin and gold bullion
If the dies had not been undersized, it could have passed me as
good without deep analysis / lab work. I thought I could see very light
indications the coin had some sort of core, under magnification, but
not enough I was sure.
Alan Van Arsdale---------------------------------------------------------------Hi Alan and Yahoo CFe,
We have just seen within the past several days on eBay a forged
subsidiary silver US coin of Asian manufacture (a farily common US
Bust Dime). This was, I believe, one of the first times we've seen
such a small creature. For the past year subsidiary small
denomination Canadian Victorian and rare George V silver coins have
been forged (including the easy to fake ICCS holders as well) all to
the dismay of Canadian numismatists. I'm also seeing some fractional
denomination old Korean coins currently being forged in Malaysia and
dumped into US numismatic markets without suspicion. To me, this
newly seen US item is evidence of a willingness of forgers to get
into forging in small denomination coins those that they haven't been
involved before. Such brazen outlook is a change in perception of
just following where profit in the coin business lies.
Compressed tungsten granules or powder, held in solid form using a
polymer type of binder in a matrix clad with gold on both surfaces
and rolled to the correct thickness (with the correct average density
of gold coin or gold bullion coin) with an applied edge band - all
similar to the Sheffield Plate way of making forgeries - would wreak
havoc on bullion markets if such was skillfully done (tungsten has a
very high melting point and most commercial furnaces/kilns are about
1000 degrees Celsius short!).
Compressing powdered metal with a matrix as binder is described by
Dr. Ilya Prokopov as 'cold pressing' - per his terminology. In my
opinion, diffusion and dissemination of this technology is just a
matter of time. The networks of organized crime and trafficking in
forgeries, looted antiquities and artwork, contraband and money
laundering are already in place for many decades.
Additionally, bullion items could have cores removed from edge
drilling, milling into two pieces similar to magician's coins or sewn
in half and reassembled upon having the interiors hollowed-out and
replaced with the surrogate matrix.
Such debased coin or bullion item could be done profitably as the POG
rises with fiat currency printing presses running amok to stave off
A tungsten based matrix looks like a viable alternative to get the
correct density of gold (for instance a .900 fine gold coin has a
density of 17.18-17.20 gms/cc and pure tungsten with a density of
19.25 gms/cc, so deploying a matrix with a specific gravity of much
less could be used to hold all into a rigid core). With an applied
veneer of gold in the correct fineness and die struck, all would be
appear fairly convincing.
Without being an alarmist, I think we're potentially looking at a
major crisis over the next few years as gold demand likely will
increase. Furthermore, at present, there is a worldwide shortage of
tungsten, but a mine in Canada is expected to re-open due to the
shortage and raising raw material prices and a new one in Viet Nam is
expected to open next year. Perhaps to the dismay of western
numismatists, Vietnamese counterfeiters may get a leg up on the
competition. I would expect Asian counterfeiters to be one of the
first to use this technology.
A willingness already exists to forge small denomination bullion
items. 1/10 OZ US gold Eagles would be no exception and in my opinion
is consistent with the profit level seen in other numismatically
REgards, Paul.---------------------------------------------------------------Hello too-toot / Yahoo CFe
Tungsten is cheap, around $65 per ton of concentrate now.
Tungsten has the highest melting point of any element except
carbon. This presents a problem to most forgers, but certainly not
There are companies, including in China, which could be legally
contracted to provide blanks of tungsten for use as cores in fake
gold or platibnum coins or bullion items. Of the same density as the
gold in the coins or bullion items.
In the IBSCC BOC there is a published gold bar which appeared
good from the outside, but had been modified so that is was tungsten
on the inside. They show a picture of it cut open to reveal the
Another possible method is to float tungsten in liquid gold and
pour fourree cores from the mix.
I tend to believe the persistent rumors of tungsten core
krugerands, though they have not been published, I have read nespaper
and other articles about fake krugerands in which it was not
disclosed exactly what sort of fakes they were, but they were very
In the 1800's platinum was often used by forgers in making
counterfeit gold coins. That does not work now, as platinum is now
more valuable than gold. I do not believe there is anything else now
except tungsten which is practical to make fake high purity gold
items which have the correct density.
Tungsten core fake gold items could easily pass most aspects
of the markets now, including precious metal refineries (once anyway,
then they would be more careful, and likely not report the problem so
as to not "create a panic", such policies so well entrenched in
markets are one of the frauds best friends).
Anyone using tungsten cores to defraud, would be making a lot
of money, and would be careful to keep the information away from the
public as long as possible. They would target items not likely to be
melted, buyers not likely to report the problem publicly if they
uncovered tungsten cores (frauds usually know very well which buyers
lack civic responsibility), and items not likely to be suspected,
such as 1/10 ounce US gold eagles.
I handle 1/10 ounce golod eagles pretty often, and I think this
one had the correct thickness. I was surprised at the quality of the
transfer, it could have passed me had it been of correct size. And
keep in mind, it is not hard to make transfer dies of the correct
size now, with modern casting and other methods.
As there is no responsible party in the World now, to purchase
such items, cut them open, and make the results public in case any
tungsten cores are found, organized crime doing this now already has
amassed considerable wealth at it. Even if they are at some point
publicly exposed and better supressed, they wioll have considerable
funds from this criminal activity which can be used for all manner of
other criminals activities potentially, including numismatics forgery
and coutnerfeit currency operations.
I suspect the 1/10 ounce gold eagle I saw was of North Korean
manufacture. I think any other forgers any place in the World, if
they could get tungsten cores in their hands, they would use modern
methods and not be using undersized dies. Only the North Koreans, in
my estimation, would have such a mixture of high technology (access
to hot furnaces and very high quality casting methods, but with
contraction upon cooling of the metal), and incompetence.
The 1/10 ounce eagle was dated 2000, likely the year it was
made. I would expect the deficiency has since been corrected, which
would not be difficult for anyone who could make a product that
deceptive int he first place, and that the markets are now rife with
tungsten core 1/10 ounce gold eagles which can fool pretty much
anyone who does not cut them open, dated 2001 and / or later.
I would suspect 2000 was the first year they did it, and in
2001 they corrected their mistake. I doubt most dealers in these
would have even noticed the small amount the dies were small by, but
then I am not as oblivious to forgeries as most dealers in US gold
I have good evidence large amounts of highly deceptive modern
gold bullion is being marketed in the US by organized crime with
Asian (including Chinese) and US members on the "team". I suspect
some of this fake gold bullion, all items unlikely to ever be refined
or cut open, has tungsten cores.
What I find very alarming, is I could not be sure by the
surfaces this coin had a core at all, and it was a small coin, so
harder to conceal the core. I believe it had a core, but I never
would have suspected without the dies being slightly undersized and
off center. I also believe it had a core of some type I have never
encountered before, and of density the same, or very close, to the
So I am now going on the assumption, based upon a large body
of evidence, but with no single proof of my assumption, that the
markets for modern gold bullion, of types unlikely to be melted or
cut open, have been being steadily contaminated with forgeries for
about six years now globally. These being of correct density and of
good enough quality they are not often being detected, and when they
are being detected, they are not being properly published.
There was a law suit around fake krugerands which were so
deceptive they were only detected when one was cut open, and had
passed expert scrutiny. I believe they were tungsten cored, but this
information was not quite made public.
Unless the gold and platinum bullion markets become more
responsible to their clients than now, and start buying gold and
platinum bullion modern coins from the markets, cutting them open,
and making the results public, there will within about four years be
a major disaster. Of such proprtions, it will be hard to even trade
gold and platinum bullion items of any type.
I also have reasons to suspect, that North Korea, and any
other groups in this trade, are stock piling precious metal in a sort
of substitution process for fake metal. So I am guessing they do nto
expect gold to go down as a result of the inevitable major scandal
which will erupt once the public becomes aware of what has happened,
and the general lack of competency in the gold bullion industry to
protect the public from such crime, not to mention the general lack
of competency of law enforcement agencies globally to protect the
public from this massive defrauding on a global scale.
There are certain low issue modern gold bullion items, which
have appeared on the markets in numbers larger than they were
officially minted in. It took some effort on my part, but I have
actually determined this to be true. The fakes, passing some dealers,
or be intentionally marketed by them, which are considered in the
trade to be of the highest reputation / reputability.
Examining some of these fakes (that is I know there are fakes in
the type as they have appeared in numbers greater than they were
minted in, and mint corruption can not be the factor in all cases,
too many countries involved and too reliable of ones for them to all
have mint corruption), the fakes seem almost undetectable to me, by
visual examination alone, without population studies.
That is, the fakes are so good, I can detect them only by
population studies in which I am examining a fairly large number of
fakes and authentic issues mixed together. Subtle differences in the
surfaces, official mint packaging etc...
The powers behind this, make eBay power frauds look like
minnows in the World of organized crime. I have reasons to believe
that they have been behind some of the efforts to supress my opinions
and public exposure of my opinions. I have been working on all this
for some years already, and it has been about four years since I
first posted my suspicions to the CFDL (and the reaction was
immediate and intense, with both Russian and Chinese hackers employed
against us). There were also attempts on the CFDL to discredit the
possibility, which were of course patently absurd, as there is no
doubt tungsten core gold bullion items of correct density are a very
I suspect the premium paid by gold refineries in recent years,
for after melt versus pre melt on bullion, actually reflects insider
industry knowledge of such danger. I never encountered this premium
in the 1980's or 1990' when selling gold to refiners. They always
seemed very confident based upon surface testing and density testing
until recent years. I have also noticed that corruption in the US
among gold refiners has become epidemic in this millenium, with
reported gold purities, in my opinion even with the "most reputable"
or refiners, usually running about 6% to 10% less than the actual
purity. I have demanded returns, and tested the gold, and found that
the returned gold was in fact of higher purity than claimed by the
So by my estimation, reputable refiners are stealing about 4%
from the precious metals markets now (there are a few honest refiners
left). And something like 2% of the gold bullion in the markets is
fake already, or will soon be fake. Much higher than that on eBay,
and whatever is dumped on eBay, eventually trickles into every market
(and into my coin store, where I get to see eBay fakes in hand). But
the more deceptive fake gold modern bullion type coins, trading at
some premium to melt value (so unlikely to be melted), are coming in
through dealers off of eBay mostly, and only getting to eBay as a
secondary market. This way they save on eBay fees, and maintain a
My understanding is that it is often amateurs,
suspecting "perfectly good" gold coins dealers and experienced
collectors / investors would not suspect, cutting open gold coins who
are discovering the fraud. That these incidents have been supressed
and kept as trade secrets (even at the cost of paying the loss in one
case), I consider a major industry corruption which will inevitably
do major damage to the credibility of both the bullion and numismatic
This fraud is easily defeated, all it takes it cutting the
coins open. Just someone has to be responsible enough, to cut open
coins now and then and take the loss on the premium over gold in case
they are good. This actually is a degeneration in the markets, that
gold coins are so rarely cut. From ancient times, until recent
decades, gold coins were routinely cut open to protect against
fourrees, and ironically, with tungsten cores, the danger is higher
now than any tiome in history (except that platinum could be used for
some time as a gold substitute), as density tests can be defeated.
I have encountered very few fake gold coins which are highlyd
eceptive in my store. And I suspect this was the first tungsten core
I have defeated in my shop. However, protecting my clients interests,
I am going to be even more cautious than I have been. If I even see
very slight perturbations on modern gold coin surfaces, I will tell
the sellers I am not interested to purchase them at this time. In my
opinion, it is much better to be safe than sorry. And when the s..t
hits the fan, I do not care to share in the blame for what has
happened, or to be unable to honor my life time guarantee of
authenticity for all coins and bullion items I sell. I am sure many
dealers in the markets now, will not be taking returns, once the time
honored practice of cutting open gold coins, becomes common place
again. Nor will anyone understand the scope of the problem, until
many coins are cut.
One thing I am certain of, is so long as the public is
intentionally kept in the dark by the industry, the problem will
increase with time dramatically. I also doubt I will ever be shown
much gratitude, for being one of the first to sound the public
warning, at considerable risk to my life and general well being. The
ancient custom of cutting gold coins is pretty much abandoned, but
the ancient custom of killing the bearers of bad tidings, is still
honored widely. Many an ancient city was taken by invaders unwarned,
even with gates open, due to this custom, as the messengers feared to
deliver their message. If we fail to learn from history, we are
doomed to repeat it.
Alan Van ArsdaleAlso:http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article2554723.eceTim----- Original Message -----From: LifeforceTo: ABSent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 7:03 PMSubject: Fw: Gold runs outGold runs out as demand vastly exceeds supply. Same in U.S. and other countries. If you buy gold, do not accept paper contracts. Physical possession is king.http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-business/article-23571196-details/Gold+runs+out+in+German+rush/article.do
Gold runs out in German rushAllan Hall in Berlin
10.10.08Risk-averse Germans are turning to gold in troubled times - but there's none left.
German gold dealers say demand has skyrocketed this past week to 10 times normal so no more orders can be taken for the foreseeable future.
"The demand exceeds our capacities by a great deal," said Heiko Ganss, head of precious metal company Pro Aurum.
"The requests cannot be satisfied right now," a dealer from the Düsseldorf WGZ Bank confirmed.
"Demand for gold as a conservative investment has risen dramatically," said stephan Henkel. "right now the demand is about 10 times as high as in normal times."
Gold deliveries now take between four and six weeks.
The US mint said on Monday it had exhausted some of its supply of bullion coins and was struggling to meet demand for gold, silver and platinum.
South Africa's Rand Refinery, producer of the world's most popular gold bullion coin, the Krugerrand, temporarily ran out of the coins in August.
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